Episode 43: Self Advocacy at Every Age with Jason Anderson

On episode #43 of All Ears at Child’s Voice: A Hearing Loss Podcast, Colleen and new co-host Julie are joined by guest Jason Anderson. Jason Anderson is a late deafened adult that has experienced many forms of hearing loss throughout his life. He found his calling and purpose in disability services. He worked for a decade at the University of Wisconsin as an access specialist for students who were deaf and hard of hearing, and he recently made the decision to leave UW M for another opportunity with the State of Wisconsin Office for Deaf and Hard of Hearing, where he is a program and policy analyst. Colleen and Julie talk to Jason about his work helping college aged deaf and hard of hearing students transition to college and advocate for themselves on campus.

Connect with Jason!
Find him on LinkedIn and check out his Tedx Talk: The Art of Accomodation!
You can email Jason at jason.anderson@dhs.wisconsin.gov

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Episode Transcript:

julie: [00:00:00] Welcome to All Ears at Child’s voice, a podcast discussing all things hearing loss. We aim to connect parents of children with hearing loss with the professionals who serve them. And now to start the show.

colleen: Hi, this is your co-host, Colleen. This week on all ears at Child’s Voice. We are talking to guest Jason Anderson.

colleen: Jason Anderson is a late deafened adult that has experienced many forms of hearing loss throughout his life. He found his calling and purpose in disability services. He worked for a decade at the University of Wisconsin as an access specialist for students who were deaf and hard of hearing, and he recently made the decision to leave UW M for another opportunity with the State of Wisconsin Office for Deaf and Hard of Hearing, where he is a program and policy analyst.

colleen: He enjoys spending time with his wife and son playing games, going outside and traveling. Jason is also an avid home brewer [00:01:00] and he also makes his own nitro coffee, seltzer water, and delicious sodas with his son. So Jason is also a dear friend of mine. He is one of, as I’ve talked about on the show, the many adults I found who were deaf and hard of hearing that have helped me to help Liam navigate his hearing loss.

colleen: And so I’m very excited to have him on. Thanks for coming on, Jason. Thanks for having me. And we’re excited to talk to you today about how you have helped youth kind of transition from going from their parents as really strong advocates to having to really advocate for themselves as they enter into college.

colleen: You worked at the University of Wisconsin and got to work with a number of students, so we’re really excited. Julie and I are both in working with younger kids, so I feel like this is an important conversation to start thinking about no matter how, how young your kid is. Right, Julie?

julie: Right?

julie: Yeah. We’re starting in the preschool with brand new three-year-olds with [00:02:00] self-advocacy skills, so it’s something we try to start really early, and I’m really interested to hear more about how that continues into adulthood.

jason: Yeah, absolutely. I think I’m enjoying hearing that people are considering, you know, getting kids involved in advocacy much younger, cuz I did see at, I mean, you know, it’s individual circumstances, you can’t really control what happens at home.

jason: But if you’re introducing the ideas of advocacy at school, early on, I think it’s only gonna make things better. It’s gonna make kids feel more comfortable as they get older in the system, so

colleen: that’s awesome. Well, before we dive into that part of the conversation, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey with hearing loss?

jason: Sure. I’ll give you kinda like the condensed version of my hearing loss history. I am, I identify as late deafened, and so I was actually born hearing, and then when I was about two or maybe three years old, I, I get kind of fuzzy on the details on that, but I had something called meningitis and [00:03:00] the meningitis destroyed the hearing in my left ear.

jason: And actually we didn’t know about it right away. It wasn’t until, you know, the weeks and months afterwards that my parents figured out that there was some damage to my hearing. I had meningitis pretty bad to the point where I actually, I wasn’t expected to survive. And when I got out of the hospital, I had a lot of recovering to do, so I had to relearn how to walk, I had to relearn how to talk, do a lot of different things.
jason: And so I think the hearing loss kind of got lost and, and muddled along into that process. Once they had discovered that I had hearing loss, uh, they found out that I was almost completely deaf in my left ear. And as I was growing up and getting older, I realized that my hearing loss on my right side kind of fluctuated.

jason: So sometimes I would be able to have a conversation with people without struggling at all. You know, I’d just use my good ear. I would have a hundred percent perfect hearing. And then other times I would struggle with like watching TV or talking on the telephone, just having general [00:04:00] conversations with people.

jason: I’d go to the audiologist and they’d say, oh yeah, your hearing’s taken a pretty significant dip. I would get down to, back then, they described it in percentages. They would say, you know, it was like 80% or 70% or something, and then without any real explanation, all of a sudden it would just get better. So I would go for months struggling with hearing, and then it would go back to normal.

jason: And so it made it really difficult to try and figure out how to use hearing aids, and I kind of dealt with that for the vast majority of my life. And then when I was about 22 years old, I, for no real reason, just kind of suddenly lost my hearing in my right ear. And at the time, because I was so used to, you know, fluctuating hearing loss, I was like, okay, you know, this is something that just happens.

jason: I’m not gonna do anything about it. I’m just gonna kind of figure it out. But this one got significantly worse to the point where I couldn’t hear my own voice, I couldn’t hear the people that I was talking to. I could no longer use the telephone. And so, After [00:05:00] I figured out that it was a permanent damage, I went, I eventually went to the doctor and they said, you know, this is something that they expect is gonna be permanent.

jason: I was immediately a cochlear implant candidate, and I went through the process of, you know, getting assessed for it, and then they said, It would be a good idea for me to get it right away. For me, I felt like there was something that I was meant to learn from it. And while it was really difficult, I mean, I’m not gonna lie, I sunk into a depression and stuff, but I felt like that there was something that I was supposed to learn from this.

jason: There was a reason why it was happening. And so I kind of took this big leap of faith and I quit my job and I enrolled at college to try and figure out what that next step was gonna be. And. I went to the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and, you know, ran into a lot of people who also had hearing loss.

jason: I learned ASL as kind of, kind of an accident. To be honest, I didn’t even know that they had an ASL program there. I was majoring in sociology, but you know, I, I kind of immersed myself in deaf culture and, um, learned the [00:06:00] language and I lived as a deaf person for about nine years. The struggle at that time was more communication with like my wife.

jason: Uh, I had already met my wife at the time, we were, you know, just dating at the time and I wanted to be able to communicate with her family and communicate with my family that didn’t know sign. And so I decided I was gonna get my cochlear implants. I got implanted on the left side first. I fell in love with it.

jason: It was so good for me that I decided to get the other side done too. And I’ve had, I’ve been bilaterally implanted for about, I wanna say 11 or 12 years at this point. And it’s awesome. I feel like I’ve got a foot in all the different worlds, you know, I can communicate in sign language, I can now talk on the phone again, I can watch tv, use, sign language, that kind of stuff.

colleen: it’s very cool. Very cool.

julie: Yeah. This is great. So at your job where you worked at the university with deaf and hard of hearing students, can you tell us a little about that? Work a little [00:07:00] bit. I think. How would, how you say like you have a, like a foot in each kind of world with your experience with your hearing loss, how does that help you in your role at the university?

jason: Yeah, I think that’s a good question. So my, my role at UWM was the, initially it was the deaf and hard of hearing program advisor, and it, it was this really unique opportunity where I got to work just with deaf and hard of hearing students. And so like, because I knew sign language and I learned it at University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee where I, where I went to college and now working, there was this great community where people

jason: Had all different backgrounds. Some people were oral background where they didn’t know any sign language and they used FM systems and hearing aids and stuff like that. And then there were other students who were fluent in sign language. Uh, they were born deaf, raised deaf for their entire life, went to residential schools and

jason: You know, I had that ability to connect with those students as well. But then [00:08:00] there was also like this third group where that was kind of like in between where they might use cochlear implants and didn’t always need as many services, or they might have used, uh, closed captioning services. And the, the goal with that was to sit down with the students and help them figure out a plan for how they were gonna go to class and understand what’s going on with their instructors and that kind of stuff.

jason: So just, it was really good. And I’m trying to remember what the question was, so I’m sorry if I missed it again. I went off on a tangent.

julie: No, that’s great. I think you definitely answered it about what your job was and how you applied your experience in that role with the people you worked with. So yeah, I think you answered that perfectly.

julie: Awesome.

colleen: As you kind of worked with these students who were transitioning from being at home with the advocacy of their parents towards sort of having to become pretty independent and having to advocate for themselves, what were the biggest challenges that you saw for students?

jason: [00:09:00] I wouldn’t say there was any one thing that I saw, um, just because everybody comes from different backgrounds, but I did see a lot of commonalities that the things that I had also encountered as growing up as a, a person with hearing loss.

jason: And one of the big things was really with self-advocacy. We got a lot of students that would have what’s called helicopter parents and helicopter parents would come into the room and they would have like their list and all this information that they wanted to make sure that we covered. And what you would see from the students is like, anytime I would ask them a question about something, the, the, the student would look at the parent for guidance.

jason: Rather than trying, thinking about those things themselves. And so pretty much early on from the beginning of the process, my thought was like, I wanna try and figure out a way to like engage the students even though the parents is there. So you don’t wanna be that person that says, excuse me, mom and dad, but uh, you gotta stop answering questions for your kid.

jason: This is inappropriate, or whatever the [00:10:00] case, you know, I would never say anything like that, but I wanted to give the kids, the, the, the students an opportunity to really just like talk about their own circumstances. And so when the parents would start answering questions, I would direct it back to the student and say, how do you feel about that?

jason: So I would redirect to the student and say, you know, how do you feel about that? And they would, sometimes they would engage and sometimes they wouldn’t, but, it was really about just like trying to redirect that conversation to them so they’d be able to start coming up with their own accommodation plans rather than relying on their parents.

jason: And I think that was one of the big frustrations that I had. I don’t wanna call it a frustration cuz I feel like that’s a little bit of a strong word, but like even for me growing up, like I always relied on my parents to like kind of like dictate the way things went. And now I’m seeing that in some of the students that I worked with too.

jason: And I’m thinking Mom and Dad aren’t gonna be there. During their college experience and they’re not gonna be there to try and explain things. So I actually went back and I got my [00:11:00] master’s degree in, uh, clinical mental health counseling. And that was while I was still working at the job. And the reason for that is I was, I was so stuck in trying to figure out like, how can I

jason: Reshape these conversations in a more positive way to allow students to really be able to think about their accommodation plans and, and not rely so much on their parents. Cuz even after their parents were gone, they would, they would sometimes feel lost. And so what I found out is that, you know, counseling is all about asking questions and allowing people to like, think about things for themselves.

jason: So when, when a parent or somebody else says you should do this, oftentimes the kids or the students think they’re not personally invested in it, right? So they’re being told what to do, and so they say, this is the way that I need to do things, whether or not that’s the right way or the wrong way. And so I started redirecting it to more question-based approaches, like what situations do you tend to struggle and why?

jason: And if this were an [00:12:00] ideal world and an ideal surrounding, where the communication barriers were in place for you, what would that look like for you? And then we’d come up with a very specific scenario, said it was like you would see students start to build this like real sense of connection with the questions and be able to start developing a personalized plan on what worked for them rather than what their parents were telling ’em that they needed.

jason: And I saw that as a very positive shift and I think I wouldn’t have known that had I not, studied counseling or I, I’m sure I probably would’ve figured it out eventually, but like, I don’t know what else to say about that.

julie: What do you think, um, are some of the things that parents, um, of younger children can do now to help them become good self-advocates for when they’re out in the world and they’re adults?

jason: I think it’s exactly what you were talking about before, starting that process early. I think parents assume that [00:13:00] kids don’t have the capacity to think about what it is that they need at a young age. And the reality is, that’s how you start the process. Like we didn’t learn how to talk overnight, right?

jason: Like we were born. And then you go through your whole infancy and you start by saying Mom and Dad, right? It’s a very basic, rudimentary level. And, and it’s kind of the same concepts for learning how to determine accommodations. As you have to have that experience. You have to know what’s, what worked for you and what didn’t work for you and

jason: If you have somebody that’s constantly like dictating what it is that you need to do, you never develop that, that thought process or, and not, I shouldn’t say never, like it takes longer to develop that thought process cuz you’re so reliant on somebody else doing it for you. And so for me, I think involving your kids, from the time they can talk, asking ’em questions.

jason: The responses may not make sense right at the beginning, but they’ll start to get it. [00:14:00] And if they’re, they’re struggling with hearing at the age of three years old or something like that, just asking very basic, simple questions like, are you hearing that? What are you hearing? What aren’t you hearing?

jason: What would make this listening environment better? Um, is there a place that you’d rather sit in this room that would help you to hear better and. Again, they may not be able to answer it right away, but just that, that prompting, I feel like builds capacity in their brains so that they’re able to start thinking about those things and eventually they’ll be able to answer ’em.

colleen: Oh, I think that is so important Jason, and I really appreciate that you gave some really specific questions in that moment cuz I think often as a hearing person, I don’t always even know what the questions are to ask and I know that just asking. Did you hear that? My son is almost 13. And so his sort of gut response was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

colleen: And so being able to have some specific, some specific questions of like, what would make this, what would make this listening environment better? Or [00:15:00] would it be helpful if you sat here? You know, like, I think that’s, so, it’s just so important and I’m, I’m really thankful for that. Just that perspective and, and the spec specificity of even the questions that you offered.

colleen: Cause I think that’s all the parents that are listening can kind of get into that head space of like, oh yeah. Like, these are things, and, and even putting the questions on the kids, um, is such, is such an important step. So I really appreciate that. It makes me wonder, you know, I was thinking about, as you know, I do not wanna be a helicopter parent

colleen: That’s actually a real thing I strive against. And I was thinking, as you were talking about the ways in which I still. One of the things that came to mind is that often when we’re in a conversation with other adults and Liam doesn’t understand what they’ve said or doesn’t hear them, he looks to me to translate, and a lot of times in the moment I sort of cover for him because I don’t want him to be embarrassed and I don’t want.

colleen: Like it can get awkward, or I know he’s uncomfortable or whatever. And [00:16:00] so I’ve, I found myself thinking about that moment in particular and being like, oh, I have to figure out a way in the moment to subtly help him advocate for himself. I’m wondering if you have any suggestions even for a situation like that where I don’t wanna call him out.

colleen: I don’t wanna embarrass him, but I also don’t want him to look, cause I won’t always be there for him to look to me be, to be like, what did that person just say? So I don’t know if you have any thoughts about that in particular, but that was a question I was thinking of when you were talking.

jason: Yes, absolutely.

jason: Uh, I’ll start by saying I’m absolutely guilty of that myself. I always, before I had my son, I was like, I’m not gonna be a helicopter parent. I’m gonna let him figure it out for himself. And even still, like, we go to the doctor’s office and I try like, just for just about everything, I wanna build independence in him.

jason: But sometimes he’s not answering. And I, I get that feeling of impatience, like, come on, you know this, like, just answer it, you know, or I might answer it for him. And it’s so hard to kind of take that, [00:17:00] that step back and say, He is capable of answering questions for himself, but I think, you know, getting targeted into questioning, like just because you’re allowing somebody to advocate for themselves doesn’t mean they have to have all the answers.

jason: So maybe instead of saying, did you hear that? asking what did you hear? Or what do you understand about what they were asking you? And sometimes that’s enough to get the brains to start working. Cuz sometimes they can’t identify what it is that they’re not understanding. And so if you try and get more specific in the line of questioning that you’re, you’re giving them the power, I think it, it works wonders, you know, it’s, it’s never gonna be perfect until they figure it out for themselves.

jason: But again, it’s all about that prompting and, and giving ’em opportunities to thrive. Yeah.

julie: Yeah. I really love the phrasing of that question. What, what did you understand? To let them take, kind of take the steering wheel, take the driver’s seat in that situation, and can hold that power in a moment that [00:18:00] might feel awkward or odd or embarrassing to kind of have that power back.

jason: For sure, and it is, and applies everywhere too. Like you think about once you have that power to start formulating your responses and thinking about the way that you approach life and approach the way that you do things, it doesn’t stop it. Just like when you’re there engaging with mom and dad, like, think about, you know, college student who’s going to college.

jason: They’re afraid to talk to their professors because they’re afraid they’re not gonna have the answers. But if you start early on in those processes with different experiences, doctor’s offices, teaching environments, going to a restaurant and asking. You know what your son or daughter wants to eat, and why?

jason: In front of the waitress or the wait staff? I shouldn’t say waitress. I think it’s waitstaff now. It allows them to build that capacity for conversations with other people so that even when it’s not hearing loss related, that they’re gonna be able to formulate their own responses without relying on mom and dad.

colleen: I love that.

julie: Yeah. I really value this. My son is only 10 [00:19:00] months old and I’m already guilty. Of helicopter parenting.

colleen: You’ve got, you’ve got to a little bit when they’re at the age where they’re like actively trying to kill themselves. You, you have to kind of helicopter a little bit.

julie: Yeah. So I appreciate this.

julie: I’m definitely gonna keep it in mind for when he’s a little bit older. So what, what might you tell a young adult who is deaf or heard of hearing? So like, Liam’s age, like 13 to 18 about going to college and how they can prepare themselves.

jason: I think it’s really understanding what it is that they need. I would say the number one thing that I saw from people who would come in to like the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee is

jason: They were given these accommodation tools such as FM systems, I think now they’re called DM Systems, like a Roger Penn and stuff like that. And they didn’t wanna use it anymore. They felt like they were overly exposed or feeling like they were the odd person out. And I think it’s important to recognize that and say, you [00:20:00] know, while these things might be beneficial to you and, and maybe even before, this is like helping them figure out what’s gonna make them more comfortable.

jason: With using that type of equipment because it is helpful. I was one of those people that also used an an FM system at certain points and like I remember the visibility of FM systems and then you get into this environment where suddenly you get to make your own decisions and you feel like it’s a more visible thing where your classmates are gonna view you as different.

jason: Different from everybody else, or you’re using some sort of technology and it’s kind of a two fronted approach, like number one’s, allowing them to feel comfortable with that and to find ways to make it a little bit more hidden, if that’s what they’re concerned about. But also there’s a chance that they’re gonna stop using it.

jason: And even if they stop using it, it’s all part of that learning experience where they can say, I used to use an FM system. I didn’t like the visibility of it. I’m not gonna use it anymore. I’m gonna make an adult decision for [00:21:00] myself. But to trust in the fact that if they’re struggling to communicate, they’re either gonna find another way to communicate that works for them, or they might go back to using an FM system and to just kind of trust that process.

colleen: You know, one of the things I’ve, one of the things I’ve realized is that Liam, we’ve done a really good job preparing Liam to advocate for himself to adults. He knows how to talk to his teacher when he is not hearing things. He knows, you know, how to make sure he is sitting where he wants to sit in the classroom and all of that.

colleen: But one of the things. I think he struggles with is advocating for himself among his peers. I think that’s harder for him. I think a lot of the timeframe where he was talking about self-advocacy was in a school like Child’s Voice, where he was surrounded by peers who also had hearing loss. And so I’m curious what you might have seen among students.

colleen: Peer to peer was it when it came to self-advocacy as they are young adults and, and even some advice you might have for [00:22:00] parents to help their kids, especially in that gangly, awkward kind of middle school, high school years of when they don’t wanna stand out, but they’re also missing things socially that have have a real impact.

jason: It’s a hard question. Trying to make me sweat a little bit. Take your time. I do think. Kind of like I was talking in the last question too, is just trusting in the process that while they may not be getting what they need right there and then in the moment with their, their friends and their classmates, I think they’re eventually gonna see the value of advocating for themselves and trying to, to figure out ways to explain what it is that they need to, to pierce without it feeling like this

jason: Elephant in the room where it’s a really awkward subject. And so maybe that’s part of it too, is just having a conversation with them, like asking those specific questions. So in your case, Liam, did you encounter anything this week that was making you feel like you couldn’t [00:23:00] talk or you couldn’t advocate for yourself?

jason: And if so, what did that look like for you? Or what were your fears? What were your, what were the things that you were worried they were gonna think about you? And put that into more of an action oriented focus about like, if this situation were to happen to you again, what could you try and do that would make it not so forward?

jason: So not where is not so out there. And allow them to start thinking about those solutions beforehand. Like maybe, maybe it was a situation where the student went up to the front of the classroom and gave the instructor their FM system and everybody noticed that. They were like, what are you, what are you doing?

jason: Why is that? What is that FM? What is that thing that you just gave to the instructor and why are you using that? Or, or what are those things on your head? What is that? Is that a cochlear implant? Is that a hearing aid? What could they do to try and like figure out a way to make that accommodation successful for themselves without drawing unnecessary attention?

jason: So like, they might suggest going into the [00:24:00] classroom early or emailing the instructor and saying, I wanna get you my FM system, but I would prefer it if we didn’t do it in front of the classroom. Um, can I meet with you beforehand and then meet with you afterwards to pick it up? Or can we try and figure out a way to do this?

jason: And allowing them to just really kind of think through those situations and how they can make that the most effective for themselves.

colleen: Awesome. Awesome. No, that was great. Thank you.

julie: This was such an interesting conversation. I really appreciate hearing your perspective on the, especially the self-advocacy piece in the uc with college-aged

julie: Students, because right now I’m seeing it with three and four year olds. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They’ve got a long time before they’re in college, but I think it’s a piece that I, as a teacher haven’t, I haven’t thought that far ahead. For these students I’m working with, so I really appreciate it. Thank you.

jason: Yeah, I’m happy to answer those kind of stuff and talk about those things.

jason: I actually have something that I might be able to help with, like [00:25:00] seeing big picture and stuff, if you’re okay with me jumping into that. Yeah, so my new role for the state of Wisconsin is I work for the Office for Deaf and Hard of Hearing and one of the cool things about that is that it allows me to think about, like, to use those, uh, those same muscles about like trying to solve problems and stuff.

jason: And one of the things that I had identified as in my four months at the, the Office for Deaf and Hard of Hearing is that there are a lot of people who across the the lifespan from, you know, young children to high school age, college adults, senior citizens and stuff who really struggle with understanding the technology that they’re being offered.

jason: So the things that I’m thinking about is, Colleen, you might remember our Quatro Neck Loops. Yeah, terrible. And working with people. Yes. So a lot of audiologists don’t have billable time where they can go through and talk about those types of things with the people that they’re working with. And so one of the initiatives for the state of Wisconsin that I’m [00:26:00] working on is just providing supportive services for people who wanna learn more about like hearing aids.

jason: Um, FM systems, whatever technologies, like even headphones. So like I use Sony headphones most of the time when I’m trying to like listen to music or whatever, but just to get a better understanding of like what is out there for people and how they can use those in different environments. Getting ’em connected with different community resources and stuff like that, and possibly even having conversations with people about like what it is that they

jason: They encounter on a day-to-day basis, and what would make those encounters or interactions with others more impactful? I love that.

colleen: That’s really awesome. That’s very cool. I love that’s what you’re doing right now that feels like it does really suit you. I know before we started recording, you were saying that you felt like this was a job that just kind of took all of the things that you love to do and you’re gifting and, and it kind of was a magical alchemy and so I think that’s very true.

colleen: I love that. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much Jason, [00:27:00] for coming on and for chatting with us. I have had the lovely opportunity to see you working with deaf and hard of hearing people helping and I just know how good you are at that, and so I love that you have found another role that allows you to use those skills.

colleen: And I also echo what you said earlier about like your unique experience of having sort of had a foot in a lot of different places has allowed you to be a bridge in a lot of different ways, and we need more of that. So I’m also very thankful for that as well. Jason, if people wanted to get in touch with you, would you mind sharing info, either Instagram or however you want people to get

colleen: in touch with you?

jason: I do have a LinkedIn account. That’s generally the way that I try to stay in touch. But you can also email me. So my email address is, my name is Jason Anderson. It’s Anderson with an o n. It could just, you could type in, uh, Jason dot Anderson, dhs, so Department of Health Services, DHS dot Wisconsin, the whole word [00:28:00] gov.

jason: So again, it’s jason dot anderson dhs.wisconsin.gov. And then you take a dig, big breath in

colleen: and we will put links to your LinkedIn. We’ll put, we’ll put, your email address in our show notes so people can find you For sure. And thank you to for joining us on another episode of All Ears at Child’s Voice.

colleen: Be sure to join us for our next episode. We release episodes once monthly.

julie: And you can follow us in this podcast on Instagram with the handle at Childs Voice podcast. We’d love to hear from you. Um, so please send us an email @podcastchildsvoice.org and you can find episodes, show notes, and archive episodes at our child’s voice website.

julie: That’s childs voice.org.

colleen: We are also on Facebook as well as Twitter with the handle at child’s underscore voice, no apostrophe. [00:29:00] So thank you for listening and that’s all.

julie: Be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen so you don’t miss any episodes. If you’re interested in supporting child’s voice and programs like this one, please visit us@childsvoice.org and click on the donate now button.

julie: Thanks for listening. Bye
colleen: bye.
jason: Bye.